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tv   CNN Tonight With Don Lemon  CNN  December 16, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PST

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you heard the republicans go head to head in the debate last night. who is the candidate to keep america safe? this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. the big question, who is qualified to answer that 3:00 a.m. phone call? everyone had plenty of tough questions and tough talk as well. did anyone have a viable plan to did anyone have a viable plan to fight terror? -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com bob cusack joins me now. who do you think won the debate? >> well, i think that cruz and rubio did quite well. chris christie had a pretty good performance.
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you have seen his numbers jump up. but i don't think it was a game changer. i don't think we'll see a major shift in the polls. i don't think that carson had a good night. he has been in a free fall. we're going to see trump stay on top and cruz going to stay on top or at least be a close second if not on top in iowa. >> not enough to affect bush in either way? >> by far it was his best performance. but honestly, that's not saying much. he had really poor performances in the first four. he was good last night. he took on trump. trump had a good comeback with basically saying scoreboard i'm up 42-3 on you. bush said it doesn't matter but it does matter of course. bush had a good night but you wonder if it is too late for bush. donors are getting nervous. he has to do very well in new hampshire. he is not doing well in new
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hampshire. we're going into the holidays. it's hard to make another move. but a good night for bush. you just wonder, can he make this huge political comeback? he has a long way to go. >> the sharpest clashes on policy came between ted cruz and marco rubio. who do you think won the day if either of them? >> i think it was very -- rubio clearly sees cruz as a threat. he knows he's vulnerable on immigration. rubio was talking about an amendment that cruz sponsored during the immigration reform deliberations. it's very much inside baseball. but i think as far as connecting against cruz, i don't think rubio put that much damage on him last night. i think cruz is going to have to answer some questions about why he sponsored this amendment and that's why rubio went after him. that's why i think christie did well. >> christie took advantage of the moments and the thing he
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does i want to speak to the american people, this is what they do. >> that resonates. people don't like congress speak. they don't like congress and don't like when they are talking about subcommittees and amendments and markups. that is inside baseball stuff and chris christie is a plain-spoken person. that's what voters want. they want clarity. christie will have to do very well in new hampshire. how does he do after that, how does he play in the south. >> the nuclear triad moment. and rubio says we have to explain what the triad is, will that hurt trump at all? do you think it mattered? >> it wasn't his best moment in the debates. i don't think it's going to hurt him. long term, i think it's smart for rubio to capitalize on those moments. rubio has been a very consistent debater. he has been at least good to very, very good in every debate.
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so he is quick on his feet, unlike jeb bush. in these settings and debates you have to be quick on your feet. it was smart for rubio to jump in. >> looking at the field from last night, finalists becoming obvious to you? >> i think so. i think you really have to look at the top three right now. and that's trump, that is cruz, and that is rubio. and the establishment is getting nervous. the gop don't like trump, they don't like cruz. i think you will see more endorsements from establishment types of people, members of congress and others that don't want trump or cruz and get behind rubio. but rubio is not winning any states. he's going to have to make a comeback in new hampshire. way behind trump in new p but - hampshire. he has to win one of these early
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states and make a move very soon. >> i want to bring in now two people who know american politics inside and out. joining me is paul bernstein and kerri kennedy. you come from a political dynasty and support hillary clinton. this is the debate to talk about foreign policy and national security that you are supposed to look like the commander-in-chief. did anyone seem like the commander-in-chief? >> not to me. this was a debate about how much you hate and it was a debate about fear. and it was really appealing to the worst of -- the worst in americans. i come from a political family. i know that the easiest way to get votes is to appeal to people's anger and hatred and fear. that's what we saw last night. >> last night's debate was dark and angry and about fear.
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is that an indication of where the electorate is right now? >> first thing, it was bellicose and irresponsible statements about general security. if you talk to generals and national security experts, they will tell you, what were saying, bomb, bomb, punch them in the nose to putin was one of the things that was said. this is not responsible foreign policy. so what is it about? it's about a fight for the soul of the republican party, which has moved somewhere, where 40% of the people who identify themselves as republicans now are supporting a crypto fascist candidate for the united states and he is driving the debate. >> he is driving the debate. >> and has been from the beginning. >> i'm sure he would not like
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crypto fascist. >> it's an authoritarian movement and demagoguery. >> who stood out to you, best on foreign policy or capturing what the electorate wants to talk about. >> trump is consistently stood out by capturing those people who are angry, as kerry says, they are white and working class and losing jobs and in terms of the republican party, christie had a very good night in terms of being, perhaps, a center right alternative, as jeb bush falters, i think he might do well in new hampshire. he's just as bellicose as the rest of them. punch them in the nose, kick them in the ass, the whole thing. but he's going to get the support of rupert murdoch i
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suspect. he identifies himself as an outsider. keep our eye on him. jeb bush is not resounding in this party, this new republican party. it's not the george bush senior or junior party and he's out of it. >> you're lucky it's after 11:00 p.m. eastern. my mom would say watch your language, young man. i'm just joking. that word has been said many times on this show. you heard about -- you heard them say carpet bombing, encrypting data, closing down the internet. were you concerned about any of that? some people say it impedes on the rights of americans if you are thinking of doing this and others say we need to do this in this terrorism age that's just a reality right now. >> you know, what we heard last night again and again was violations of basic liberties which is really against what
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certain parts of the republican party stand for. and we also heard an awful lot of blaming the other, blaming the immigrants, blaming muslims, et cetera. that is a real problem. >> you work in international circles. as you watch this what were you thinking about? >> i kept thinking about what van jones said which was the biggest recruitment tool for isis is donald trump. but you know, as somebody who works in international circles, it's really very, very dangerous and bad for the united states to have the republican party keep saying all these things. you know, the u.s. was at our very lowest point internationally when george bush invaded iraq and when abu ghraib came out, all those photographs.
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that's what they are advocating. >> hillary clinton responded to the rhetoric today at a town hall. >> when you think about, you know, mr. trump and his outrageous comments and the comments of some of the other candidates, that's not only shameful, saying no muslims can come to america and all the other things that they are talking about, that's dangerous. it plays right into the hands of isis. >> so to your point where you said donald trump is capturing what the electorate is thinking. >> that part of the republican electorate. >> is hillary clinton on the right or wrong side of the american public when she says things like that? >> it's nuanced. we have to hear what she has to say about terrorism. terrorism is real. the threat is real. the democrats, i hope, and presume are going to recognize the threat and there has to be a balance between civil liberties
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and this new threat. we are unprepared in terms of cyberwarfare through the clinton administration, the bush administration and the obama administration, we have been awful about cybersecurity and preparing for this. we need a real strategy against islamic terror. there's nothing wrong with calling it islamic terror. but we don't have that comprehensive strategy. that doesn't mean it's just about -- >> it's nothing to do with islamic terror. that's just not -- that's not right. >> the origins are certainly coming from an interpretation of islamism. >> then, where more people have been killed by white christian men in this country since 2001 than by anybody, any terrorist from other countries or from other religions.
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do you call them christian terrorists? >> there is an islamic -- self-identified islamic movement bied by a certain people to annihilate those who don't agree with them. i don't think it's wrong to call it islamic terrorism. does it represent all of islam? no. >> it is a problem because it is mixing up anyone who is a muslim into that. so what are you going to do now? malala is not allowed into the united states because -- >> that has nothing to do. malala has nothing to do with islamic terrorism in the name of islam as isis pretends it represents. malala is islamic and a human rights activist and muslim.
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you have all kinds of things going on within islam. and part of what is going on is this horrible, horrible movement which is my listic in nature. we are going to talk about this in the next block. but kerry, i want to mention your organization, the robert f. kennedy human rights. >> that's right. and come on and meet anderson cooper. >> he's on the auction block. that's a little scary. >> and you have been there. you were there last summer and my mother is going to give you a tour of the compound. it's going to be fun. >> thank you kerry and mr. bernstein. when we come back, a lot of talk about muslims and islam. but what is the reaction in the muslim community? we're going to talk about that
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we're going to go in depth about the muslims that was a topic of the conversation last night. joining me is rula jabril. and a correspondent for "vice" on hbo. rula, last night's conversation centered on terrorism. what is the tone? >> i think baghdadi was celebrating. he was very happy. basically they were saying we are at war with islam and they treated all muslims as a potential threat and killing the relatives of terrorists, you know, we're not sure they deserve constitutional rights or not. >> not all of them were. >> i'm talking about the overwhelming majority.
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what trump is doing, the anti-muslim remarks are being considered as normal or as a policy. they are forcing the other g.o.p. candidates to respond on these, you know, the remarks, banning all muslims and gop are look at this as maybe we can think about it. >> as i watched the other gop members they are saying they don't like donald trump's plan. he seems to be the only one on board with banning muslims at least temporarily. >> look, when you call refugees rabid dogs and muslims all kind of names. and then you say we want only christians. we don't want muslims because there is something wrong with muslims you are criminalizing an entire group of people. you are marginalizing them. and you know, you are feeding to this warmonger and fear and
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prejudice that plays into the hands of isis. >> ahmed what was your reaction to the debate? >> it was based on fear mongering and hate speech and the manipulation of the public perception of fear. it should not come as a surprise that many muslims would react in fear. santorum was saying that islam is not a normal religion and should not have the same constitutional protections as other religions. huckabee wants surveillance of mosques and carson saying that supermarkets should be surveilled. it was disturbing to see what was going on the stage. no real discussion of policy and nuance. carson, a neurosurgeon, a man who has pledged and taken an oath to protect and save
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innocent lives couldn't of proud and boasting about the fact that he is tough enough to look over the fact that hundreds of thousands of children might die with this carpet bombing and saturation bombing and bizarre terms. just the terminology if you look at the fact that i think 81 times the war terror or terrorist or terrorism was used. the word attack was used 50 times. if this was a debate about how to keep america safe, if this was a debate about how to protect america -- >> with all due respect the debate -- >> the word guns was not mentioned once. >> it wasn't about domestic security but about national security. and -- >> this is legitimate. the fear is -- >> go ahead. >> does it keep us safe to discuss these things and the terms being discussed? >> how do we talk about terrorism without saying terror?
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>> but don why don't we talk about all the other things that don't keep us safe in america? when we talk about terrorism, let's be smart about it. jeb bush was the only candidate that said something that none of the candidates were doing which is let's think first and be smart. that wasn't apparent to me yesterday. >> here is some of last night. >> i would be very, very firm with families and frankly, that will make people think. because they may not care very much about their lives but they do care, believe or not, about their family's lives. >> islam is different. i know this is going to come as a shock to a lot of people. islam is a political governing structure. >> if islam is as wonderful and peaceful as adherents say should they be begging us to come listen to the sermons and bring
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the fbi so we all want to convert to islam? >> this is horrifying. the piece that we didn't hear is when i think that cruz was nostalgic for arab dictators. because some of them are condemning trump we think they are moderate or even he is -- trump is expanding the far right, whoever is condemning trump is moderate. but what you are hearing is a criminalization of an entire group of people, something we heard elsewhere in europe before world war ii and it's just something that would never have been acceptable in our society. >> ted cruz now, listen. >> well, i'm reminded of what fdr's grandfather said. he said all horse thieves are democrats. but not all democrats are horse thieves.
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in this instance, there are millions of peaceful muslims across the world in countries like india where there is not the problems we are seeing in nations that are controlled, have territory controlled by al qaeda or isis. and we should direct at the problem, focus on the problem and defeat radical islamic terrorism. it's not a war on a faith. it's a war on a political and theocratic ideology that seeks to murder us. >> he is talking about democrats, he did make that distinction between terrorists and muslims. do you welcome that sort of statement? he is trying to make a distinction between terrorism and islam. >> with all due respect to senator cruz, it's very disturbing because he's not just factually incorrect. there have been several terrorist attacks in restaurant history in india. but to say all muslims -- to say
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all terrorists are muslims even while conceding that not all muslims are terrorists is very unproductive and offensive. >> that's not what he said. he didn't say that. he said that all democrats are horse traders. but he is saying that we should -- >> but also -- but he also previously said that about muslims. even beyond that, don, if you look at the discourse and the way it has been accepted to the point we had a two-hour debate that perhaps we should be talking about these issues but we should be talking about them in the context of the other issues that threaten us. if you look at the shooting at san bernardino. guns was mentioned zero times. now we found out from intelligence and government authorities that the shooters behind san bernardino were not posting on social media and not part of isis. there is just such a level of
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perception that is distorted and it can be so openly discussed. i found it to be really troubling. and quite frankly at the end there was a comment from cruz about syrian refugees how up until 2013 we had never experienced this kind of refugee crisis and it took us by storm. and he was -- he used to believe that refugees are -- we're accustomed to believe that they are escaping or fleeing from oppression. but where are those syrian refugees escaping from if not oppression. >> the muslims are fighting and dying. if you alienate the same -- >> i have to tell you we did concern this is an unscientific survey. did donald trump do a good job defending his position? 63% of those polled last night said he did do a good job.
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37% said no. when we asked should we accept syrian refugees, 31% said yes and 69% said no. >> there is a pathology that is happening in this country that is really cascary. 18 million people heard what the candidates had to say tonight. did any of them pass the commander-in-chief test? i sold my bike on wallapop, yes i did.
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last night's debate was all about national security. who made the best case to lead the war on terror? joining me is mark hertling and michael weiss. so, listen, general hertling, as i understand it you are not sure that any of the candidates passed the commander-in-chief test last night. how so? >> as i said before, i judge the leadership qualities of the candidates in three categories,
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category, presence, and intellect. and last night i was taking a lot of notes like michael smerconish was and just taking the checks of what they were saying and how they were saying it and addressing various complex issues having to do with national security. i know it's a debate format and they have a limited amount of time to answer it but on both sides of the aisle, so far, they have not shown me they truly understand the issues in this very complex campaign that we're attempting to wage with other people which is going to be a generational fight. >> do you think donald trump had a handle on the nuclear triad and if not is he ready to be commander-in-chief? >> that was particularly the one area i was amused with. you could tell he was stumbling with what the question was. maybe he didn't understand the question and i thought it was interesting that marco rubio,
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senator rubio after that, gave a primer on the nuclear triad. this is the ultimate test of the potential catastrophe that the world might face if the president of the united states has to decide to use nuclear weapons. it is something he will be briefed on in great detail the night before he takes his -- or makes his inaugurational address. so if mr. trump does continue on the path that he's on he better learn some of the intricacies of what power is associated with holding office and how he has to understand the things that go along with. that. >> michael all the candidates were talking tough last night. >> senator cruz -- would you carpet bomb raqqah, the isis capital, where there are a lot of civilians? yes, or no? >> you would carpet bomb where
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isis is, not a city but the location of the troops. >> does that make sense? >> unfortunately for ted cruz where isis is is cities, raqqah, they are entrenched in civilian infrastructure, former syrian government buildings, prisons, they have human shields. they have taken over residences and dispatched the fighters to live in the community. they know they will being surveilled and bombed around the clock where their military positions are. you cannot carpet bomb isis without committing war crimes. so he is advocating war crimes. >> also he had a basic chemistry question wrong as well. he said we should bomb syria until it glows in the dark. sand turns to glass, it does not glow in the dark. >> there was talk about shutting down the internet and monitoring
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social media. is any of that the answer to fighting isis? >> it's a lot of tough talk and i want to say at the beginning how far these foreign policies and foreign relations debates have gone. historically and i don't know the background of this panel, the democrats and republicans used to be consistent, would agree a lot and vary on different pieces of the puzzle and we are so far away from the basic tenants of what foreign policy is. it is relatively simple. it includes four tools, diplomacy, law enforcement, military and intelligence. we heard about one of them which is military as if war is the solution to all of the problems that we are confronting. it's similarly not. no one believes that the radicalization of a person living here is going to be solved by carpet bombing isis. it's a very different kind of
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problem than we face this the homeland. for me we are talking about 1/4 of the issues and tools that a president's going to have before him or her to deal with the challenges that are going to confront us which may be isis today but maybe unknown in the future. you know, presidents -- the 3:00 phone call -- at 3:00 in the morning because you didn't know it was coming. because presidents are often surprised about what the national security threat is. >> yeah. general hertling, americans are frightened. even some of the comments and the rhetoric an why they support the candidates, they are frightened of terror now just as after 9/11. is the threat to the homeland overstated right now? >> i believe it is. that's a great question to ask. i think part of it is overstated because of what we're seeing the candidates do. they are looking on both sides, again, trying to be nonpartisan
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and apolitical on both sides. there is an attempt to drive fear as aopposed to compassion and rational approaches. this guy clauswicz says you have to have a balance of emotion and chance. we are seeing a lot of emotion but not seeing the candidates across the board put forth some reason and this is a complex issue. there are nuances in the fight against isis just like there is in the understanding of what mr. putin is trying to do or what the chinese are trying to do in the south china sea or what we are faced with in terms of cyberwarfare. but a commander-in-chief needs to know that he should go to other people to try to get a
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better understanding than off the cuff talk. >> i appreciate you joining me this evening. the hot button issue, immigration, will it cause up with potential front runner to stumble? ( ♪ ) ♪ i see the sights and scale the heights ♪ ♪ any hour, day or night ♪ ♪ i set me free ♪ oh, lord, set me free
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the candidates going head to head on a lot of issues last night but imfwramigration may be toughest here. bob beckel is here, and also ben ferguson. ben, immigration. hot topic last night. marco rubio. watch this.
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>> there was a battle over amnesty and some chose like senator rubio, to stand with barack obama and chuck schumer and support the amnesty plan. marco wants to be this great and strong on national defense but he is the weakest of all the candidates on immigration. he is for an open border to leave us defenseless. we have to defend against who is coming in. and marco has more of an allegiance to chuck schumer and the liberals. >> he was hit hard on that last night. >> yeah. >> and he is a family of immigrants, cuban-american. >> gang of eight. that's what this is all about. he is not a guy that people think will be tough on immigration. >> the democrats -- he's the most electable. >> that is the biggest load of crap from democrats. who they are afraid of the most is who they would like to run
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against the most. i think they think hillary clinton would win out on that issue. they are more afraid of a big compare seen contrast. rubio was taking it from four people last night. he had to play defense more than offense. i don't think he's in a good position moving forward. i think ted cruz will have a big bump and donald trump will be in the lead. >> can he do anything to win over people on immigration? >> the biggest issue that is going to call -- >> are hispanics not going to vote for him because he was in the gang of eight? >> the hispanics are going to like him because of his heritage. the issue is going to come down to an issue of national security dealing with immigration. you have them now combined. once you had what happened in san bernardino and with this coming in fiance you have combined national security with
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immigration. >> it's not just -- >> it's just not about illegal immigrants from mexico. >> everyone knows we're not going to deport them all. >> but you heard what we are talking about. the democrats are saying oh, my gosh, marco rubio, i'm afraid of him. he's the one. does this party care about electability? >> they do care about electability. but i think the nation when they hear about immigration in the context that ted cruz put it in, border security is national security. when immigration is put in that way, i think the nation is going to come down on the side of ted cruz and donald trump and marco rubio has a lot to answer for. you look at the amendment banning immigration from 30 countries that are hot beds for terrorism. rand bawl and ted cruz voted for it. marco rubio did not. he has a lot to answer for on
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immigration. >> bob, immigration reform, the perfect ample of something that the establishment republicans think is the best -- is best for the party but the rank and file just can't seem to swallow that? >> look,let get down to basic numbers here. good try, ben, by the way. you cannot continue to get beaten among the fastest growing demographic in this country 2 to 1 which has happened to the republicans except for george bush who got 44% of the hispanic vote. if you have ted cruz or trump they are going to increase their turnout. >> this is an issue if you are inspiring voters or not. >> you are kidding yourself. >> is he suggesting pandering? >> here's the point. you have people now that are
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looking at this and are more concerned about national security than imfwrags reform. it plays to donald trump and ted cruz and others on stage. we get away from terrorism and tax it is more of what do you do with illegal immigrants here and how do you grandfather them in. if you think that's the issue, it's an issue of national security that's intertwined. right now if you pick a candidate you have the one talking national security and not just immigration reform. >> you are talking about two different kinds of immigration. you don't believe -- you think that people believe that mexicans are terrorists? >> they are concerned about the southern border. >> of course they are concerned about the southern border. but if you let the republicans
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scare the hell out of people. terrorist attacks in the country have come from homegrown people here. >> she flew into this country on a visa. >> she was imported. >> she married an american. she married an american, right? >> the last great person who -- ronald reagan in 1986. >> he gave 3 million people amnesty. >> he did not give 3 million people with connections to isis amnesty. >> how many immigrants are connected to isis? >> how many were connected to terrorism in the '80s. probably zero. >> and among the syrian refugee were isis. isis is trying to infiltrate the
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population. the fbi cannot check them adequately. >> we are talking about h hispanics. >> bob is the last word now. >> you're buried. >> we need popcorn for that conversation. coming up. a hung jury in the freddie gray case. calls for calm following protests in the streets of baltimore. but this morning, a city i'd never been to felt like home. thank you for sharing the world with me. airbnb. belong anywhere. if yand you're talking toevere rheumyour rheumatologiste me, about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira giving me new perspective. doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years.
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in baltimore a hung jury in the first of six trials in the freddie gray today. the family of freddie gray asking citizens of baltimore and elsewhere to, quote, remain calm. joining me is andy alperstein and neill franklin. we spoke to you in the last hour. what happens next? >> next, i think that they're going to appear in court tomorrow. that will happen. whenever you have a mistrial they have to appear in court and set a new date. that may be real or it may not.
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the state is likely to consider whether they want to go forward. when you have a hung jury it's the prosecutor's choice if they want to go forward and try the charges again. but i think you're going to see a lot of legal maneuvering in the next two weeks. it's likely that the state would ask for a postponement of the remaining five trials. i think that's going to happen only because the state had previously said how important it was for the officer's trial to go first. if they are going to maintain that order they will have to push everything back. i would expect strong opposition from the other five defendants' lawyers. they want to get the officers back on the job. they're losing money, overtime, salary, what have you. so i think that that is going to happen. and then i think if that postponement is denied then the
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state is going to have to make a tough decision about whether or not they need officer porter against the driver, officer goodson. if they do, the only remaining option is to give officer porter some sort of immunity which means he could testify and it can't be used against him later. >> this has brought to a head the tensions between the law enforcement and the people of baltimore. where does that stand now, all the unrest that happened earlier in the year. where does it stand now, the relationship? >> there are a couple of areas to speak to here. first of all some of the information that came out of the trial from the folks that testified including porter about the culture of policing and the fact they are not seat belting people into these metal boxes on wheels. we had one captain testify that
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said following policy is discretionary. it's not. it's policy for a reason. the police commissioner has got to do some very important things here. he's got to deal with those issues. he's got to make sure that the police are doing what they need to do. the second thing as it relates to the community and you know what happened back in the spring and you know we had protesting today, obviously the police have learned some things from the uprising in the spring and the citizens have also learned some things. the protesting was very peaceful today. they did what they are supposed to do as protesters. there wasn't any destruction of property or uprising today. from the police department, they have equipment now. they know how to deploy and
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prepare strategically. but when you look at the officers, there was no riot gear. there was good communication between the police officers and the protesters. one lieutenant in particular had really good conversation with the protesters. >> you said your first answer, well, you said -- i lost my train of thought here. so you were talking about protocol not being followed. >> absolutely. >> should these officers then if the protocol is discretionary and that was their initial training should they be put on trial for something that was not necessarily taught to them that was mandatory to do each time? >> let me clarify something. as the head trainer for four years. i was there from 2000 to 2004. that is -- it is not the training. >> i have about 20 seconds left. >> the training is you follow policy. policy is there to protect you
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and it is there to protect the agency from liability wise. you have to follow policy. it keeps people safe. >> thank you. see you soon. we'll be right back. hey, what are ♪ having? ♪ ♪ ♪
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oh no... (under his breath) hey man! hey peter. (unenthusiastic) oh... ha ha ha! joanne? is that you? it's me... you don't look a day over 70. am i right? jingle jingle. if you're peter pan, you stay young forever. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. ♪ you make me feel so young... it's what you do. ♪ you make me feel ♪ so spring has sprung.
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a. >> very interesting two hours.
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>> ac 360 starts in just a moment. >> good evening, thanks for joining us. tonight, which republican presidential candidate has the national security know-how to be commander in kwheef? that was the focus of last night's cnn debate. more than 18 million people watched. now the reaction of viewer, fact checkers and our team of military and intelligence experts. first, breaking news out of the baltimore where protesters marched against what happened in a courthouse late today. eight months after the death in police custody of freddie gray, a hung jury in the trial of the first of six police officers charged. mr. gray's death sparked baltimore's worst rioting since the assassination of dr. martin luther king jr. this time, local state and county authorities

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